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Original von sphinx
the fact that even though Israeli society is somewhat racist towards Ashkenazi and other 'non-Western' Jews |
But the Ashkenazi are the 'western' Jews, you mean the 'oriental' Jews or the ethiopian Jews?
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Abdel Kader's Journal
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18.12.2005 17:26 |
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Is it only about Anti-Zionism or is it about anti-semitism in general?
Does it deal with anti-semitism during the 2nd World War?
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Abdel Kader's Journal
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18.12.2005 17:30 |
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Original von abdel kader
I hate it, when people carrying Israeli Flags are attacked, which happened several times here.
But I don't get it why it should be so important to run around with flags.
Isn't politics more than showing symbols? |
i also think the question of flags isn`t really important. on the one hand it has been discussed that often and all the people know the causes to do or not to do, on the other hand it is a very superficial topic i suppose.
more interesting to me (as a sometimes-israel-flag-carrier, especially against nazis-rallies and leftist pro-palestine-demonstrations) are other questions that are related but seem to go more to the core of the problem, e.g. how can you unterstand the barbary (?) of national socialism in relation to capitalism? what is the position to auschwitz and how does it affect all aspects of humanity after 1945, including of course revolutionary critics? what does ist for example mean for antisemitism today, is it after the shoah always to be thought as an eliminatoric one or do you have to differ nazi-antisemitism, secondary antisemitism (antisemitisms because of auschwitz that regards the jews as reprasentation of the german crimes that shall be brought to silence in order to constitute a "normal" nation again) and islamistic antisemitism under the aspect of its massmurdering potential? and what is the relation of antisemitism to others mechanisms of exclusion/discriminatory ideologies like sexism and racism, how can you avoid to get into a sort of hauptwiderspruchs-thinking that privileges antisemitism over every other sort of discrimination and lets you finally slip into the open arms of liberal bourgeoisie?
so far,
lidschatten
p.s.
x-cuse my bad school english.
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"Du kennst also dein Ziel?", fragte er. "Ja", antwortete ich, "ich sagte es doch: `Weg von hier´, das ist mein Ziel."
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18.12.2005 18:34 |
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Original von abdel kader
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Original von sphinx
the fact that even though Israeli society is somewhat racist towards Ashkenazi and other 'non-Western' Jews |
But the Ashkenazi are the 'western' Jews, you mean the 'oriental' Jews or the ethiopian Jews? |
Shit, I meant to type Mizrahi. Like Peretz. I'll edit that. I'll respond to some of the other questions later today.
sphinx
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19.12.2005 02:31 |
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Original von scrupeda
@Pepsi: Where are you? You haven't spammed this thread yet. Don't you want to deliver some handmade anti-german-bashing in english to this curious person who seems eager to learn more about anti-germans? |
Oh Scrupeda, you're so funny! 
In fact, "anti-German" is a complete misdenomination for this political current. In the 1990's there were a lot of people on the left who called themselves anti-German because of a wave of murderous attacks on "Auslanders" (people who live here, but don't look "Aryan", mostly the children of Turkish immigrants, but also gipsies, black people or the Vietnamese "guest"-workers in the former GDR). There have been more than 100.000 attacks on "non-Germans" after national re-unification, and though the racist mood has calmed down a bit, foreign tourists still are best advised not to leave the more secure downtown districts of the major cities.
But what has become of the anti-German left?
Those who still oppose German chauvinism usually despise to call themselves "anti-German", because the label has been seized by a bunch of extreme racists, who organize anti-Muslim demonstrations in Berlin. Their commitment for Israel has become a mere pretext for hate speech against Arabs. One example is the conference Scrupeda talked of. There, the recognized ideological leader of the anti-Germans, Justus Wertmuller, fell in a rage for 10 minutes as the topic came to the recent riots in France. He called the revolting youths "scum" and "dirty Arab faces" and said he wished that they would all kill each other. At the end of his speech several hundred people applauded and not one dared to protest, especially not Scrupeda, who even now is not ashamed to boast of having attended.
Another striking example: when the Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci wrote that she had threatened to set fire to the tents of "illegal" immigrants in order to force the Florentine police to clamp down against the camp, the leading anti-German magazine BAHAMAS applauded her for her courage and called her an anti-fascist, because the black refugees from Nigeria happened to be Muslims.
I have criticized these racist tendencies among so-called "anti"-Germans for years and as a consequence have been insulted on a regular basis by Scrupeda's comrades, one of whom has called me a "cunt" recently. 
But, of course, I will not be silent, I will not give in to racist hate speech.
Fortunately I'm not the only one who doesn't let those hate mongers get away with their Muslim bashing. There's a group of anti-German immigrants (anti-German in the sense this label carried during the 90's) who have published several polemics against German and "anti"-German racism. But they are hushed up by the left-wing media (Konkret, Jungle World), which decline to publish any of their texts nor even mention their existence, because they are dominated by ordinary racists who are comerades-in-arms with each other.
It's very funny that the anti-Germans now try to export their anti-Muslim rhetoric to the left-wing public of other countries. This always reminds me of the motto: "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen" (The German way is to heal the world), coined by the last German emperor, who plunged the world into a devastating war.
I don't think the world needs "anti"-Germans. Rather, the world needs no Germans at all! 
PS: Here's another comment I wrote in English to clear up some popular misunderstandings regarding the "anti-Germans" and their ultra-racist agenda.
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- Dieser Beitrag wurde zuletzt am 19.12.2005 um 19:06 Uhr editiert -
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19.12.2005 07:27 |
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First to Abdel 'Japan and the Jews' is about both classic Japanese anti-semitism which conceived of Jews as a threatening 'foreign religion' that wanted to conquer Japan, this was fueled strongly by the Japanese experience in the counter-revolutionary armies against the Russian revolution, there was also a strong philo-semitic current that regarded (regards) Jews as 'great businessmen' that must be brought to Japan to increase its imperial power, however this anti-semitism never had the same characteristics of German anti-semitism since the sphere of circulation was under the firm control of Japanese ruling classes; and the book also covers how these perceptions of Jews intersected with anti-Zionism from the 60s and afterwards. Check it out if you're interested.
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Original von lidschatten
how can you unterstand the barbary (?) of national socialism in relation to capitalism? what is the position to auschwitz and how does it affect all aspects of humanity after 1945, including of course revolutionary critics? what does ist for example mean for antisemitism today, is it after the shoah always to be thought as an eliminatoric one or do you have to differ nazi-antisemitism, secondary antisemitism (antisemitisms because of auschwitz that regards the jews as reprasentation of the german crimes that shall be brought to silence in order to constitute a "normal" nation again) and islamistic antisemitism under the aspect of its massmurdering potential? and what is the relation of antisemitism to others mechanisms of exclusion/discriminatory ideologies like sexism and racism, how can you avoid to get into a sort of hauptwiderspruchs-thinking that privileges antisemitism over every other sort of discrimination and lets you finally slip into the open arms of liberal bourgeoisie?
so far,
lidschatten
p.s.
x-cuse my bad school english. |
Liddenschatten, you offer quite profound questions. I don't pretend to have answers to them, only the vaguest gropings for answers. Let me link you to a meditation I wrote on my blog that perhaps applies here to begin with:
http://asayake.blogspot.com/2005/03/behe...lla-part-1.html
We already know that to the Germans and collaborators who threw them into the gas chambers, the ditches and the pyres, the Jews of Europe were completely irredeemable, not even worthy of working out their last days in gulags like many in Russia to buffer the Soviet economy. Although I have not yet written the second part of that article, I speculate that the Jews were projected by Germans and others as embodiments of the circulation sphere, that intrinsically chaotic, anarchic relation of capitalism, and were slaughtered pathologically in a sort of therapeutic release by everyday Europeans as an imminent expression of the capitalist tension of concreteness/abstractness. This release was not part of a 'capitalist plan' or an inevitable structural seizure of capitalism, these were almost all willing executioners who were convinced that saving German society meant turning back the 'Bolsheviks' and annihilating European Jewry.
((In the same way the anti-semitic/anti-Zionism of the Middle East is irrepressible (perhaps moreso) by local ruling classes, who certainly can make use of the phenomenon but find it impossible to control (Abbas vs. Hamas, The Saudi royal family vs. Al Queda, Mubarak vs. the Muslim Brotherhood) and in some cases like Iran a faction of the ruling class decides to mobilize a strategic military move on the basis of the uniting power of this hatred.))
Social Democracy and unions play an important role for the ruling class not only in mediating mutinous action against capitalism but also in its transformation of a critique of capitalism as a mode of production into a critique of capitalism as mode of distribution. "Social democracy is the line that announces that now is the time to 'defend' what people have 'won'. It is through defense, and the proletariat's subsumption and capitulation to capital that capital secures itself, but in the process tends towards anti-semitism. For a proletariat with no strategy except its legitimation or 'valorization' in the eyes of capital, instead of its self-abolishment, all appeals have to be made in the terms of capital, therefore the proletariat is the 'source' of value, the working man and his dedicated domestic slave are valorized as the work-horses of the economy, the wage is 'attacked' but only in terms of its expansion against the sphere of circulation." So I think we can say that a structural phenomenon of 'anti-semitism' is intrinsic to capitalism, but only in Germany did its fetishized form result in genocide.
Have people here read 'When Insurrections Die' by Gilles Dauve? This text influences me very much.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2379/dauve.htm
But most important is this recent critique produced of it by the French Group Theorie Communiste : http://www.theoriecommuniste.org/neoTC/T...rections%20die/
Let me know what you think of these two works.
Pepsi Koda, I can't speak to the veracity of your claims. I would like to hear others' opinions on those matters (the Italian neo-fascist and the claims at the anti-deutsche conference especially). Did you attend that conference by the way?
sphinx
- Dieser Beitrag wurde zuletzt am 19.12.2005 um 18:16 Uhr editiert -
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19.12.2005 18:09 |
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Original von sphinx
Did you attend that conference by the way? |
I took part in this conference, unfortunately, so you can trust me: Lysis is right.
Altogether, this conference, held in november an organized by Bahamas magazine, was completely free of discussions and was finished with a speech about arab youth in France by Mr. Wertmüller, leader of Bahamas magazine you surely know. He said that Mr. Sarkozy (Frech minister of interior) is not able to solve the "problem" (!) as he's acting not consistently enough and drew the conclusion that it would be the best solution (!) if the muslim "maghrebs" (the so-called "dirty arab faces", as he stated several times) would kill themselves.
Review this quotation. It's the old racist logic: "they come to our country an can't behave". There's just one difference: Wertmüller doesn't just want to send them back, he want them to be dead.
I doubt there's a reason why the whole audience applauded. And there are a lot of reasons not to belong to these idiots.
By the way, there was more stuff announced during this conference to be criticized, e.g. the hailing of liberal democracy. Needless to say that such people said goodbye to Marx' criticism of political economy long time ago. Although they sometimes (rarely, meanwhile) call themselves "anti-German communists", they don't concern with criticism of civil society (remember: communism would mean the abolishment of that society), but with pointing out the most stupid reasons you can imagine why and how their society (necessarily, including capitalism and including nationalist ideas) should be defended against islam.
Well, there's a mistake in reasoning. At least.
By the way, the last issue of Bahamas magazine designated islam to be "the most reactionarily ideology of the last century"... Think about it.
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"Wobei die Diskutanten dort weniger faschistisch zu sein scheinen als beim KF" (Phryger im "MF")
- Dieser Beitrag wurde zuletzt am 19.12.2005 um 23:24 Uhr editiert -
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19.12.2005 22:51 |
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@sphinx: I think you should not tread the path the anti-Germans went severeal years ago. It's a track to nowhere. It's overly simplistic to deduce anti-Semitism from the structural foundations of capitalist society. There's much more to it. The Nazis didn't regard the Jews only as embodiments of the circulation sphere. You neglect the importance of racial theories, biological thinking and social darwinism, all of which are completely missing in the Islamist version of anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism.
There are currently no pogroms against Jews in the Arabic or, on a larger scale, the Islamic world (though this actually has been the case some decades ago, in the late 1930's, when the Mufti of Jersualem took the Nazis as his role model). And you are also wrong if you think that anti-Semitism in Arabic countries stems from below. It's rather become a part of government propaganda. Mr. Abbas, for example, allows his state television to broadcast anti-Semitic sermons and is not into fighting them, as you seem to insinuate.
The stereotypes against Jews that can be found in the Arab media are comparable to the anti-Semitic clichés that were circulating in the whole of Europe at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century. Such famous anti-fascists as Winston Churchill and such honorable newspapers as the London Times had shared in them, but -- as you rightly pointed out -- only in Germany anti-Semitism led to genocide. Therefore it's not enough to explain the general logic of anti-Semitism to understand such a monstrous crime as the destruction of the European Jews.
I do not see the point in explaining Auschwitz out of the structure of capitalist society. This is a certain path to relativizing the singularity and national specifity of this crime, as the "anti"-Germans have actually come to do. There are enough good reasons to oppose the capitalist mode of production, but to derive anti-Semitism from it will always be a speculative undertaking that cannot be validated by human reason. If the Jews had not become scapegoats in medieval Christianity and forced into the despised role of money lenders, how would this "in-built antisemitic logic" of capitalism express itself then? My answer's simple: not at all!
You should not treat anti-Semitism as just a further argument against capitalism. That won't do it. The Soviet Union under Stalin was equally anti-Semitic as Western Europe, and there's no warrant that the traditional hatred against Jews will vanish with a socialist revolution. Therefore you should rather address anti-Semitism as an object of criticism in itself and keep it separate from your criticism of capitalism. Then you won't repeat the mistakes the so-called anti-Germans have made in these parts when they became a racist movement that does anything but criticizing their own countrymen.
Personally, if I lived in Japan, I would preferably address the Japanese colonial past. For you know: the main foe is always your own country! 
But what sense does it make to criticize the Arab world when only Japanese or Germans are listening? I mean, where's the point in that?
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guckst du hier: planet.x-berg.de
- Dieser Beitrag wurde zuletzt am 20.12.2005 um 01:18 Uhr editiert -
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20.12.2005 00:22 |
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I wrote Arab world, not Islamic world.
According to my source, the Jewish population of Iran was 11,000 in 2003, as opposed to 100,000 in 1948.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...m/iranjews.html
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The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Teheran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Teheran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function. 4
Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.
On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiran and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6
At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7
- Dieser Beitrag wurde zuletzt am 20.12.2005 um 14:34 Uhr editiert -
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20.12.2005 14:25 |
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OK, but then I can't understand why you make such a fuss about Arab anti-Semitism!
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guckst du hier: planet.x-berg.de
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20.12.2005 16:11 |
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Original von eagleton
Obviously because of the threat the Arab world and Iran (which is not a part of the Arab, but of the Muslim world) pose to Israel (the Iranian nuclear program being the most important atm). |
You are kidding. Israel is militarily superior to all of her neighbours and, what is more, she even has the bomb! You can't think in earnest that Iran would risk to be nuked just to destroy Israel.
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| And for sure you know at least some of the reasons for the decrease of the Jewish population in Muslim countries since 1948. |
Aha, and it's your self-proclaimed task to build a time machine and reverse history or what?
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guckst du hier: planet.x-berg.de
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20.12.2005 17:38 |
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